3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Stereo pictures general talk

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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby rucnd3d » Fri May 04, 2018 10:07 pm

Sony Cameras Synced! Yeah!
After extensive testing I can say with certainty that my 2 Sony Cameras are now properly synced! After 3 years of seeking answers on them darn interwebs I found the solution right back here at Phereo. Randy Hester figured out how to patch together the Sony multiport cables. My solution was based off of his. My solution involves patching together 2 YouPro reciever cables. Thanks again Randy. Thanks Jose! I still can hardly believe this actually works! Feel free to ask for more info etc.
Here's a sample of Sync taken today by the Wisconsin River.
http://phereo.com/image/5aecc7aae7e56447190001cf
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby josebarbera » Mon May 07, 2018 12:54 pm

Following the Randy’s path with the A5100 cam, and in addition to the Sony A6000 and the Sony FullFrame A7S cams, tested a week ago, now I can affirm that all the APS-C and FullFrame cams with Sony Multi-Terminal port has a perfect sync using the twined cables FS8 and MS8. :D :D :D

But after several tests we can affirm these two cables (F-S8 & M-S8) cannot sycronyce the more pocketable Sony Multi-terminal cams: HX50 / HX60 / HX80 / HX50 / HX90 / WX500 :mrgreen: .

We could not test other Sony Multi-Terminal cams (RX-100II, RX-10II, RX-1RII and ILCE-QX-1) because we did not have two unboxed identical cams in the shop :mrgreen: .

In any case, each 3D photo fan can make the appropriate checks, but, of course, only under their own risk because all we should remember that the Multi-Terminal port of Sony is not designed to trigger both twined cams by pushing the shutter button of only one of them.

I alway prefer side-by-side stereo rigs for my old 3D rigs: the Nex5+Nex5 and the NX300+NX300 ... and also now for my new Sony Alpha rigs, because I think using Z-mount not allows a easy and quick access to the settings of both cameras.

Modify the continuously variable stereo base of my rigs is also more easy using the SBS bar configuration.

But certainly many people will prefer to use (maybe for aesthetic or traditional reasons) a fixed stereo base equal to the distance between human eyes, (according to the Gaussian distribution): 6.5 cm .

For that all we have now two new opened routes:

First way:

Now we know that a "miraculous" synchronization is possible (in addition to the A5100 APS-C cam) also in the Sony Full Frame, including the 3 cams with higher resolution (R series): A7R, A7RII and A7RIII ( 42 MegaPixels !!! :D ).

A stereo rig Sony, Alpha 7R series, in portrait mode, using double screw, has a stereobase of only 80 mm and a resolution of 42 MegaPixels :D :D :D . After aligning with SPM you can cut the picture to landscape mode obteining a good resolution for see the mpo files on the TV. Even with Alpha APS-C cams of 24 MP (6000 x 4000): 4000 pix wide cut in scape mode can be greater than the 4K resolution: 3840 × 2160.

Second way:

We have verified that the paired cables (FS8 + MS8) do not work in the smaller Sony cams with MultiTerminal port (HX50 / HX60 / HX80 / HX50 / HX90 / WX500) but it is very likely that the synchronization will be perfect using a single external trigger, with Y bifurcation towards the two Multi-Terminal ports (as in the olds Samsung rigs, NX300 and NX1000). That can allow several stereo rigs with small stereobase.

But I think:

The human eye has a Focal Lenght of only 50 mm (according a Laplace–Gauss distribution), but in two-dimensional fotography, much longer lenses are used: until 210 mm in my old Sony Nex5 (all its lenses can be used on all Sony cameras with E or FE Sony mounts !), ...with continuously variable mode.

The human eyes have a stereo base of only 65 mm (according a Laplace–Gauss distribution), but in three-dimensional photography we can use wider stereo bases: 600 mm (all my new stereo bars) or more ... also with continuously variable mode.

My wife's favorite stereo rig is a Sony A7S + Kula Deeper, which we showed at the Cardiff 3D Convention, last year so I hope we have other A7S cam for make new stereo rig A7S + A7S (with twined FS8+MS8) for next black Friday, after the prices will cames down in the summer, due to the appearance of the new A7S III. :D

Meanwhile it will be easy to obtain an Alpha Sony rig, more cheaper but also with excellent synchronization, :D :D :D

Thank you Randy !
Thanks a lot Sony!
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby rucnd3d » Mon May 07, 2018 3:23 pm

Jose,
Agree with your warning about this being at each owners own risk.
I does not bother me because I bought these Sony A5000 cameras for synced 3D. Without this multi port wiring hack it, all I have is a bulky system only slightly faster than Cha-Cha.

Current observations on performance.
With my Sony A5000 setup I have noticed some peculiar behavior with both cameras wired together as prev described.
#1. Often the two cameras shutters trigger when powering up.
#2. I think the file numbering of each camera is also synced up. IE left camera view numbered same number as right camera view. Maybe just coincidence with my cameras. IDK.
#3. Also don't think this sync will work with manual focus lenses, because as prev stated, the pre-focusing is what syncs them up.

Almost seems as if both camera think they are the same camera. Thoughts?
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby josebarbera » Mon May 07, 2018 11:13 pm

Hi Dan,

>#1. Often the two cameras shutters trigger when powering up.

In my own experience that never happens in the Sony Alpha cams, connecting the Multi-Terminal port with the twined cables (F-S8 + M-S8) .

That only happened, many times, when I tried connecting directly both Micro-B USB ports of the old Samsung NX-1000 rig, even using wires with diodes. For that reason, to achieve a more consistent synchronization on the NX-1000, the best solution is, for me, using a single external trigger, with bifurcation towards the two micro USB ports, just as everyone does with the Samsung NX-300 stereo rigs.



>#2. I think the file numbering of each camera is also synced up . IE left camera view numbered same number
>as right camera view. Maybe just coincidence with my cameras. IDK.


I think that is only a coincidence due you have identical similar settings in the menu of both cams.
Please look: last tab, 4th section, second line, (just below “formating card”).

If you press fully (so shoot)... before the halft pressure (focusing and sync :), then can happen:

a) Two NON-synchronized photos are triggered.
or
B) Only one cam shoots

For eliminate these orphan photos, the Ken's StereoPruner program (http://www.cyclopital3d.com/SUPPORT-AND-DOWNLOADS.html) works very well. The time and date data must be identical in both cameras, so also in the EXIF data..



>#3. Also don't think this sync will work with manual focus lenses, because as prev stated, the pre-focusing is what syncs them up.


I have not tested any lens without autofocus in the Alpha cams. Sony mirrorless cameras have the lenses very close to the sensor. This implies that it is very easy to build adapters for mount the lenses of other brands to the Sony E and FE mounts. Furthermore, using the "metabones" adapters is even possible, not always, that the autofocus can work.

Kind regards

Jose Barberá
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby josebarbera » Sat May 19, 2018 7:32 pm

The male multi-terminal Sony plug is avaiable with several different length, with the names S2 or S8:
LGSHOP 2.5 mm - S8/S2:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076F ... WZJE&psc=1

Others brands of the male S2 are avaiable in the Amazon (USA, UK, jp, de, fr, it, and sp), and also in Ebay:

JJC, Cewaal, PHOLSY, Foto & Tech, Tyoungg, DSLRKIT....


But the very rare plug, the female versión, is made only by DSLRKIT....and its name can be:
-“DSLRKIT e3f S2M” : in all 5 European Amazon shops (UK, de, fr, it and sp)..

or

“DSLRKIT Cord e3 F-s2” in USA and Japan:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M6 ... JBWE&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.jp/s/ref=nb_sb_no ... rd+e3+F-s2


The miracolous existence of the very rare Female S2 alows a perfect sync of the last Sony Alpha cams, using theese twined cables (S2M+S2F)

Only 15 euros allows to any interested people become an Sony Alpha-tester in the new era of stereo photography (only under their own risk because the Multi-Terminal port is not designed to trigger both cams by pushing the shutter button of only one of them...) and if the result is not anought good ...both cams can be returned.

It is the Sony Multi-terminal era of stereo photographie....and certainly...It is a new world !
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby josebarbera » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:48 pm

These four photos are made with the Samsung Galaxy S7 (cha-cha method) with the intention of quantifying in milliseconds the perfect synchronization of the current Sony Alpha cameras.

http://phereo.com/album/5b2d7270e7e564752f0000d3

This morning, (last day NSA Convention 2018 in Ohio, USA) , simultaneously (that is, with perfect synchronization :) ) happened

On the one hand I saw that a colleague ("br_foxy") of the Yahoo 3D Photo group had provided me with a good website to measure the synchronization in mileseconds of the cameras:

https://www.online-stopwatch.com/

On the other hand, my wife was waiting for me impatiently (on Saturdays more people come) to go to the beach.

For this reasons, due to the excessive rush, the four photos have a poor composition and the second one has excessive deviation, because I have not had time to obtain photos with better framing, composition and depth.

The photos have shown (and have also quantified) what was previously evident with a detailed observation:

There is perfect synchronization is all the shots (the milliseconds always coincides in both screens), but for that is necessary to make the photo in two steps (as in the Samsung NX cameras):

- First step: focus (half press)
- Second step: shoot (full press)

If, hastily, the full pressure is made directly (focus and shot immediately followed) the result in the synchronization is very incoherent and can oscillate a lot: From 541 vs 568: (27 ms difference) until the best syn; 342 vs 336: (6 ms difference).

Directly full pressure (focusing and shoting simultaneously ) implies bad sync: from 6 ms (best) to 27 ( worst sync).


I hope this helps all the colleagues for whom it is important to quantify the synchronization in milliseconds and visual verification is not enough.
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby josebarbera » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:34 am

Now, a posteriori, after the message of Turbguy en Phereo: http://phereo.com/image/5b531203e7e564512f0001d2
it’s evident that the path that “br_foxy” suggested to me (and that I followed withaut any doubt given my inexperience in that type of measurements:) in order to measure the synchronization in milliseconds is not enough exact.

As “gl” wrote in 3D-Photo: “With the 60Hz LCD, the best you can see is 1000/60 = 16.67ms temporal resolution. So if both cameras are showing the same image (eg. a counter), they could still be up to 16.67ms out of sync with each other (unlikely but worst case, and you have no way of knowing).”

Now, after reading also the lucid message of Wayne Karberg (Turbguy:) it is evident that we need a monitor with a refresh rate of 1000 Hz (or alternativy a analogue stopwatch with display in miliseconds) to get that exact quantification in milliseconds, It seems clear that this type of monitor and this type of analogue stopwatch, if they exists, they will not be easily accessible.

Randy showed here, in Phereo, another path, linking the website with the programm made by Peter Wimmer... but I am thinking about a problem : How we can verify that the program works fine if that program now now is the only way to measure the synchronization with the accuracy of one millisecond or less ?

I believe that only a solution based on LED screens, until milllisecons, as already mentioned there, could be fully scientific and facilitate easy measurements but... producing words is very easy and it is very doubtful that anyone will be able to build it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KH ... 5OXX&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OK ... 9FV8&psc=1
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby josebarbera » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:52 pm

I think the sync difference is obvious, after comparing the synchronization of the current Sony Alpha cams with the obsolete Sony Nex-5, half of them with some mis-sync.

Some people have tried to prove a bad synchronization of the current Sony cameras pointed out the synchronization flaws of some photos of Venice (wrongly since they were made 8 years ago with Nex-5 rig, using finger sync !) believing, wrongly, that they were made with the current Sony Alpha cams:

http://phereo.com/album/5b4487abe7e5644f1400000e

But those same people have not tried to discredit the Sony Alpha sync by pointing to the series about the acrobats girls and not pointing to the other series about “modern” girls street dancers:

http://phereo.com/album/5b2d7270e7e564752f0000d3


Both facts proves that these people, at least visually, also accept (implicitly and indirectly) the perfect synchronization of the current Sony Alpha cams, through their MultiTerminal port.


Now all of us, 3D lovers, can have equipments with the same technological level that the 2D photographers. I think really a new era begins in 3D photography: the Sony MultiTerminal era.

Everyone will be welcome to the 3D Sony club :-) ----> 3 dozens of extraordinarily good 3D rigs, (with the same technological level as the best current 2D cameras :) .

Every 3d photo fan can select your own 3D Sony rig:

A7, A7R, A7S (I, II, III) A9
A5100, A6000, A6300, A6500
NEX-3N, A5000
A3000, A3500/
A58, A68, A77II, A99II
RX1R II
RX10 II , III, IV
RX100 II , III, IV, V, VI
HX300, HX350, HX400
HX50, HX60, HX80, HX50, HX90, WX500 (with external trigger?)

Certainly it is a new world, That is a big game-changer.
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby BerndPietsch » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:41 pm

Besides my Sony TD-10 and Futji W3 I'm using 2 action cams on a self-made wooden rig.
stereo base 7-15 mm
As stabilizer I take a 3-axes-gimbal by Zhiyun (smooth2)

As action-cams (ORDVM) I use an assortment of 10(!) cameras, because it happens that two apparently similar cams don't match. Maybe the lens are not 100% on the same place (specially the height) or they have not the same FOV. As FOV (changeable) I choose 70° to avoid too much distortions (fish-eye-effect)

To synchronize both camera I use the provided remote control that transmit the commands to both devices.
That works (most of the time) also making photos of fast moved objects.
95% of the videos I made are already perfectly synchronised without the need of a post-edition.
However - I know - this is not enough for a professional video, but good enough to enjoy it with my friends.
The extreme depth of the photos and videos compensates you for the less unreliability.
The action cams are able to capture with a max. 4k- resolution. Usually, I choose full HD to avoid problems with the TV and the computer.

IMG_20180919_162048 (Large).jpg
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Re: 3D Stereo Camera Rigs and Sync

Postby josebarbera » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:32 am

Sony has already developed (last spring) a perfect synchronization (for still pics and also for video) in several Alpha cameras. During the last weeks I have used the new cable, the Sony VMC-MM2, in my stereo Sony Alpha rigs replacing the twined cables DSRLKIT (male ande female) and the sync is also perfect in all the still images obtained.

https://savemoney.es/asin/VMC-MM2%20sony


The cable was intended for very specialized professional clients, and it was not designed with the 3D world in mind:

“This dual camera Sync cable connects an RX0 (as sub-camera) to your main camera to synchronize still or video capture with a single press of the main shutter release. Ideal for capturing decisive moments at weddings and other events from both cameras simultaneously. Capture a different angle, depth and field of view, frame rate or picture profile using your main camera plus an RX0 at one time.”


To achieve to take two pics simultaneously synchronized, the RX0 camera can be mounted over the main camera replacing the flash, taking its place.

The cable Sony VMC-MM2 enables perfect synchronization between the main camera (a Sony Alpha or a Cyber-shot cam) and the sub-camera RX0, capturing still images and videos, with a single press of release button.

To synchronize video REC/STOP, the main camera must have "Movie with shutter" assigned to its release button, following these settings:

Menu:-- > Movie3: Movie with shutter button ON



Only the four last commercialized Sony Alpha cams are fully compatible (for still images and also for video), as main cams:

ILCE-7M3, ILCE-7RM3, ILCE-9 and RX10 M4.

Also the DSC-RX0 camera is fully compatible (for still images and also video) but it only can be used as sub-camera.


The following 14 Sony Alpha cams are compatible only for still images because these cameras can NOT assign, in the menu, the movie recording-button to the shutter button:

ALPHA-6000, ALPHA-6300, ALPHA-6500
ILCE-7, ILCE-7M2, ILCE-7R, ILCE-7RM2, ILCE-7S, ILCE-7SM2
ILCA-77M2, ILCA-99M2
DSC-RX10M2,DSC-RX10M3
DSC-RX1RM2


Sony reports here about the compatible cameras:
https://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/ww ... dl=VMC-MM2

Theoretically, according to the information of Sony, only the little camera RX0 is usable as a sub-camera and it is evident that it is the most comfortable for events since it can be assembled, on the top of the main cam, replacing the flash.

But during the last weeks I have used that cable, the Sony VMC-MM2, in my stereo Sony Alpha rigs replacing the twined cables DSRLKIT (male ande female) and the sync is also perfect in all the still images obtained.



When the main camera (Sony A5100 or Sony A6000 or Sony A7S) and the sub camera (identical to the main cam : the other Sony A5100 or the other Sony A6000 or the other Sony A7S) are conected with this cable I can shoot pictures simultaneously on both cameras just by operating the shutter on the main camera (the cam connected to the I-shaped plug)..

But operating the shuter on the sub-camara (the cam conected to the L-shaped plug, right angled) it’s not possible shoot the main camera and only one pic (in the sub-cam) is obtained.


Also It will be very interesting to test if this new cable (VMC-MM2) serves to synchronize 3D video using twined rigs with the four Alpha models video compatible with it (the only four models in which it is possible to assign in the menu: "movie recording - button" to "the shutter button"): the twined A7III, or 7RIII, or A9, or RX10IV rigs.


I think a new era in 3D photography a new era has begun, (at least for me, excited and happy): the Sony Multi-Terminal Era.

Thank you Sony !!! Certainly that is a new world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtsyzd-B6hU


Regards

Jose Barbera
http://phereo.com/josebarbera
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